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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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 Post subject: Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Veddy interesting...lots going on.


Video is good, but ability descriptions after are vital:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f128/617 ... unter.html


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:59 pm 
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strat fu page has excellent diagrams:

http://www.stratfu.com/strats/blood-pri ... e-strategy

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:54 am 
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Sorry for snapping at you for the charge, JT.

I think we got the pull figured out though -- Neph should open, and then we taunt etc the meleers off.

In addition to Zy's comments about Demon Armor (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47889) I also wonder however if it's prudent and if Neph has a spare helm and cloak for SR, and possibly [Lesser Flask of Resistance] flask -- it would bump him up to 220 resist, which would bump out several resist bands, guaranteeing a minimum resist of 20%.

It's probably not necessary as we gain comfort with the fight, but a resist flask at the least would also be helpful in the off-chance he was targeted by the flame bomb at any given time as well, to prevent ubergibbing, although we did not have FR aura during these goes as well.


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:36 am 
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Tamraine wrote:
Sorry for snapping at you for the charge, JT.

I think we got the pull figured out though -- Neph should open, and then we taunt etc the meleers off.

In addition to Zy's comments about Demon Armor (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47889) I also wonder however if it's prudent and if Neph has a spare helm and cloak for SR, and possibly [Lesser Flask of Resistance] flask -- it would bump him up to 220 resist, which would bump out several resist bands, guaranteeing a minimum resist of 20%.

It's probably not necessary as we gain comfort with the fight, but a resist flask at the least would also be helpful in the off-chance he was targeted by the flame bomb at any given time as well, to prevent ubergibbing, although we did not have FR aura during these goes as well.


Was gonna say something to this effect. FR aura/totem and a lil shadow resist won't hurt, although as Neph/ranged tank makes more shadow friends, the resist may not be necessary--it's just heavily frontloaded. But as we learn the fight and get more gear, more resist definitely is a smart idea.


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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 Post subject: Re: Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:06 am 
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Here's tonight's shocker report for you guys.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 3812&sid=1

and

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1210&sid=1


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:19 am 
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shadow resist is supposedly a bad idea, because the shadow bolt / shadow lance whatever ignores regular resists, and if you resist the damage from the nucleus you won't get the resistance increase applied to it. or so say the forumz.

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:48 am 
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Parses are going up now, but i wanted to give you a heads up -- Taldaram is meleeing for an average of 21k+ in my parses. That cannot possibly be appropriate for a 3 tank fight on 10-man mode. That's Festergut with three stacks of his buff.

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Quote:
Just killed Princes. We had the same bug. It's caused by the Kinetic Bomb going through the ceiling, which aggros BQL.


Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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 Post subject: Re: Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:00 pm 
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aha. ahahaha. ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahha.

Quote:
10 man strict world of logs
Prince Valanar 28 hits average melee is 22952
Prince Taldaram 27 hits average melee is 17204

25 man world of logs
Prince Valanar 63 hits average melee is 15286
Prince Taldaram 160 hits average melee is 14007


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:14 pm 
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it's pretty hilarious to cruise WoL and look at parses -- world-class 25 man guilds taking 10 tries to kill princes in normal 10, then 2 shotting blood queen.

Pretty obviously broken.

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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 Post subject: Re: Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:29 pm 
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There are a couple ways to look at this:

1) Complain it's harder than it should be, give up, and wait for nerfs; or
2) Actually try to deal with the fight we're given.

Here's the deal:
Arroll gets hit for 21k average by a 2-second swing timer.
Neph in a standard build and gear gets hit for slightly over half his health, on a 1.5-second timer.
Justin gets hit for 15k average on a 2-second swing timer.

Arroll and Justin are avoiding 35-40% of hits. That translates into Arroll actually taking about 4k dps from the boss.

But avoiding hits doesn't mean shit when you can get 2-shot. Arroll and Neph are both in 2-shot range on the parses. That's not viable.

So. Who can get the highest health? I'm guessing that's JT (or Rosen obv) right now, since Arroll is in mostly T9-level tank gear. A tank who can take 2 hits and not die should be tanking each boss.

So Neph needs soul link and nether protection. Those will drop incoming damage by about 50%. That plus Demon Armor would make this level of steady incoming damage a joke to heal. Or we need Sojourner to tank.

--

We had a bad setup for the fight. It's a bit annoying to see so much pointing fingers at Blizzard when there are obvious steps we can take to handle this ourselves.


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:43 pm 
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zyzy wrote:
There are a couple ways to look at this:

1) Complain it's harder than it should be, give up, and wait for nerfs; or
2) Actually try to deal with the fight we're given.

Here's the deal:
Arroll gets hit for 21k average by a 2-second swing timer.
Neph in a standard build and gear gets hit for slightly over half his health, on a 1.5-second timer.
Justin gets hit for 15k average on a 2-second swing timer.

Arroll and Justin are avoiding 35-40% of hits. That translates into Arroll actually taking about 4k dps from the boss.

But avoiding hits doesn't mean shit when you can get 2-shot. Arroll and Neph are both in 2-shot range on the parses. That's not viable.

So. Who can get the highest health? I'm guessing that's JT (or Rosen obv) right now, since Arroll is in mostly T9-level tank gear. A tank who can take 2 hits and not die should be tanking each boss.

So Neph needs soul link and nether protection. Those will drop incoming damage by about 50%. That plus Demon Armor would make this level of steady incoming damage a joke to heal. Or we need Sojourner to tank.



I was thinking along the same lines.

I'd like Rosen to tank Taldaram tonight, with Arroll on Keleseth. No JT tonight. Neph should have Demon Armor up, for sure, and if he wants to spec into the other changes, it would make it much easier to heal.

Quote:
We had a bad setup for the fight. It's a bit annoying to see so much pointing fingers at Blizzard when there are obvious steps we can take to handle this ourselves.


You callin me yella?

All i'm saying is that Blizz can't reasonably expect a 10-normal group to have a soul link / neather ? protection lock and 2 physical tanks with 45k+ health and reasonable avoidance, or expect healers to heal through the gaps in that lineup.

That said, if people are game tonight, let's go. I have a suspicion that fixes will be incoming during the day anyhow.

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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 Post subject: Re: Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Just saying it's not much of a strategy to say the fight is too hard. Sure it will get nerfed. And there will be a heroic mode after that to deal with. Will that mean back to the whine well, or will we think about how to win?

We had obvious lineup and approach problems with obvious solutions, but we had several posts in a row giggling about R&D forums banter. Oh it's too hard because someone said something in R&D! Let's not worry about how we totally fucked up in approach and execution! :p

Btw, I looked at several WMO logs using the same tank in 10 and 25, and the 25-man version appears to be hitting significantly harder. Shrugs.


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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:18 pm 
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zyzy wrote:
Just saying it's not much of a strategy to say the fight is too hard. Sure it will get nerfed. And there will be a heroic mode after that to deal with. Will that mean back to the whine well, or will we think about how to win?.


Fair enough, Zy. I don't shy away from a challenge, and you're right -- heroic mode will challenge us much more. We can all do better, and challenges -- even unreasonable ones -- are how we get better.

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Strategy and Discussion: Blood Princes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:11 pm 
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zyzy wrote:
Just saying it's not much of a strategy to say the fight is too hard. Sure it will get nerfed. And there will be a heroic mode after that to deal with. Will that mean back to the whine well, or will we think about how to win?

We had obvious lineup and approach problems with obvious solutions, but we had several posts in a row giggling about R&D forums banter. Oh it's too hard because someone said something in R&D! Let's not worry about how we totally fucked up in approach and execution! :p

Btw, I looked at several WMO logs using the same tank in 10 and 25, and the 25-man version appears to be hitting significantly harder. Shrugs.


Only reason I posted what I posted was because it's well-documented now that we aren't, contrary to your last few posts on the subject, incompetent healers. We didn't get to see much of the fight because tanks were getting gibbed by borked mechanics. Yes, it's obvious that strategy needs to be cranked out and many of your solutions are solid, but if you're going to pretend that we're whining our way out of it, we're not; it's just a more-than-solid reason why people weren't performing to expectations yesterday.

That being said, Neph is spec-tweaking today to be an optimal tank, I'll bring my stam/magic kit, and I'm sure JT/Arroll are working things out, and now healers know more of what they're up against as well. I have no doubt as we survive to see more of the fight that these kinds will be worked out, bugged or not, but you'll have to pardon me for being offended that you're so clearly slagging me for that post and other healers for performance when really, there's a good explanation behind it.

No one is shying away form the challenge.


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